Hi Guys,

I just quoted the book Rattler One-Seven over at DCS forum for a question about this RL 'Nam procedure, maybe it could raise some interest here too...

„…we would fly over the LZ so that wind was 90 degrees off the left side of the helo, altitude about 2500 feet – a good margin for safety from small arms fire. When we were directly over the LZ, we would lower the collective, and roll the bird into a steep left turn. This would set up the helicopter in a steep descending turn. Rate of descend would be 2-3000 feet/minute as we made our 450 degree turn. Within seconds of starting the approach, we would begin our roll out and be established on short final to the LZ. All we had to do was flare the helicopter while adding power, and within seconds we would be hovering in the LZ. Benefit of it was it took a mninimum amount of time to get into the LZ, and if we get hit while the approach, we just continued down into the LZ where friendly troops were located. Many pilots would do 360 degree high overheads, but I liked the 450 better."

AC's (Aircraft Commander) fly normally right seat, but in Vietnam they flew left seat for a better visibility through left bubble with less dashboard obstruction. Also mentioned, "...due to aerodynamics of the helicopter it was better to execute a high overhead approach in a left turn, instead of right. ..." and "...being the AC, you wanted to be on the side of the aircraft in which you were making the turn, which allowed you to see better what was taking place on the ground as you shoot your approach."

Cheers

We can practice it next time we are on together

Yeah, for sure, but I wouldn't want to knock my lead out of the sky, so first off I will definitely try to make it singleship to have a general feel for the procedure and the control settings on each phase of the approach. Then try it in a rather loose formation, then when it runs well, just then close it up. Because descent rate is pretty close to autorotation regime in a first place...

As far as I remember they made it max. two ships, but I might be wrong plus or minus. I listened to it pretty long time ago (as I got to like to listen to audio books for driving.)

A great book. This was the first time I heard this procedure mentioned after reading a number of similar books. Sounds like fun!

I tried this procedure after I saw this post and it's awesome, I love it!

(HHC/229) Skullz wrote:I tried this procedure after I saw this post and it's awesome, I love it!

Good to se ya Skullz.

During my time in the Army, I had never heard of a maneuver like the one described above, taught as a technique for getting into a hot LZ but I did get to experience it once when an instructor, who was a Vietnam pilot asked if I wanted to see what an autorotation from stationary hover at 2500 feet was like.  He didn’t describe it as a combat technique but a stationary turning autorotation from altitude to a hover.  

It was during my initial training in the TH-55 and after finding a suitable clearing he came to a stationary hover at 2500 ft. AGL over a rather small clearing surrounded by very high tree's about 10 west of Ft. Rucker, Alabama.  He began the maneuver by dropping the collective and adjusting the pedals for an autorotational decent.  Immediately, he set the aircraft into a corkscrew turn to the left (he was sitting on the left) and did several 360's around the clearing (LZ), keeping the LZ out of his side.  

As we approached 100 feet AGL (about tree top level), he began to decelerate while still turning and as we reached 15 feet he began to pull collective.  Talk about a pucker factor…try watching tree’s wiz past, while the ground is rushing up to greet you.  He never chopped the engine so, as he added torque the aircraft began to settle into a hover at about 5 feet.  I must add, it was only a demonstration, I was not allowed to try it…just experience it…but it was worth it.   The entire maneuver took just seconds to get into the LZ, so I can see how this could be a fast entry technique into a hot LZ but it must have been a unit trained technique because after that day, I never saw it again.

It is a very dangerous maneuver, so I would suggest lots of practice and lots of spacing between aircraft to make multi-ship operations a success.  Please put videos up of successful approaches, I would love to see them.

I tried earlier will try recording the track I failed btw

<---  Plopped 3 into Heaps of Twisted useless piles of doo doo and gave up....   no Video Needed  

Not to brag, but my problem is rather how to make a video of it... Never done any...

Been in the back of Puma's and a Chinook when similar manoeuvres were performed as a tactic to avoid certain known threats. Also Wessex's but they seemed to be always more gentle in control inputs (?) and never did the side-slipping thing...

The Chinook was from around 5-6000', extreme banked left side-slipping descent, from memory about 2 x 360 and that was it we were running out the back... sphincter didn't get time to clench as the brain was too busy looking for it's stomach....

(D/229) Gizzy wrote:...sphincter didn't get time to clench as the brain was too busy looking for it's stomach....

I laughed my *** off!!!

Video software is available via fraps or a new one on me seems popular bandicam or if you have a newer nvidia card shadowplay is a feature. Google all of the above and you should find free ware all my video is taken with shadowplay

I've been using BandiCam for over 6+ years.. Never a complaint.

Questions?... just ask

I would say altitude kills. Many units learned that when they started going against heavier AAA systems. During one battle the 229th and other unit lost 20+ aircraft in 3 days due to higher altitude tactics.

Sorry I have not been around more, busy working. Hope to get on ts soon.

(HHC/229) GunfighterSIX wrote:I would say altitude kills.  Many units learned that when they  started going against heavier AAA systems.  During one battle the 229th and other unit lost 20+ aircraft in 3 days due to higher altitude tactics.

Sorry I have not been around more, busy working.  Hope to get on ts soon.

Good to see ya Six.

Good to see you Six...I agree...altitude kills...probably not a good combat tactic...that why I never saw it again...be safe Six

Also I by no means wish to discourage you guys from trying different tactics from books you read and shows you watch. DCS is a great place to have fun testing that stuff out.

I always seem to end up flying under 500 ft AGL, and typically even lower, e.g. 200-300 ft AGL in DCS, even when there are no threats around. From what I read, cruising altitudes in VN were 1500-2500 ft AGL or so. But it takes so long to climb up here and then come down again, that I just putter along much lower. Good to know that I am practicing for a AAA environment!

I thought, though, that if no SAM's around, after the 1st GW aircraft generally flew higher to avoid AAA? If it is not classified, what would be the typical flying altitudes today if there are AAA?

Also, this left-seat/right-seat thing in VN is very confusing, with lots of different accounts. Certainly visibility is better in the RIGHT seat, no, not left as quoted above? That's clear in both photographs as well as the sim. From what I read, slicks generally had AC in right seat (for better visibility while landing), contra to standard civilian arrangement, while gun ships generally stuck to the AC in left seat?

If you look at the Huey dashboard, there is definitely less obstruction/more view on the left side (looking ahead of course).

(B/229) Blade wrote:If you look at the Huey dashboard, there is definitely less obstruction/more view on the left side (looking ahead of course).

Ah, this is true! Mixed it up in my head.

From "Chickenhawk":

"I was in the right seat, first pilot’s position, a courtesy extended by Daisy. Later I almost always flew from the left seat, even when I was the first pilot, because the left side of the Huey’s instrument panel was chopped and I could see straight down to the ground between my feet."

From "Gut 'N Gunships" (highly-recommended; in same league as "Chickenhawk" and "To the Limit"):

"In the civilian world, the aircraft commander flies from the right seat in a helicopter and from the left seat in a fixed wing aircraft. In Vietnam combat slick pilots flew command from the left seat, because they were always flying into very tight areas, and they needed all the visibility they could get through the chin bubble and the instrument panel was skewed to the right. This obstructed their view somewhat from the right seat. Gunship pilots, on the other hand, followed the civilian tradition, and flew command from the right seat, because they didn’t generally fly into tight LZs."

Garrison, Mark (2015-09-01). GUTS 'N GUNSHIPS: What it was Really Like to Fly Combat Helicopters in Vietnam (Kindle Locations 1465-1469). . Kindle Edition.

Here is an example of this maneuver, it takes good touch on the controls and balls of steel but it's not too difficult.

Interesting

I think we might try this on Thursday night NeF if you can make it

Hi guy's, I recently finished reading the Chuck Gross 'Rattler 17' book... quite an interesting read, although I prefer Bob Mason's 'Chickenhawk' tour. Chuck Gross (Rattler 17) seems to have perfected this high altitude spiral approach and apparently used it quite often in Vietnam.  However, it seems that he did not get on too well with one of his CO's and he was advised to stop using the technique as it was considered dangerous.  Perhaps it was his CO just getting 'hard-balled' with him or maybe he considered a high approach exposed Gross to enemy fire?  Seems debatable to me... and would depend on the location of the LZ... a high approach would minimise small arms fire until you got right on top of the LZ but could expose you to missile attack (if there were any in the area).  I tried this steep left turn approach in the DCS Huey on the Virtual Aerobatics server... it is fun, but I managed to trash three out of five birds by failing to flair correctly and get the power back on in time (my forte LEL).  I am keen to practice it some more though... it can only make it better ^ Hope to see some of you Thursday...